Allah, in the name of, the Most Affectionate, the Eternally Merciful
Religion & Ethics
Dedicated to ethics, religious tolerance, peace and love for humanity
اخلاقیات اور مذہب
اعلی اخلاقی رویوں، مذہبی رواداری، امن اور انسانیت کی محبت سے وابستہ
A Dialogue with Atheism
One of my close friends has studied the arguments of present-day Atheists and got impressed with them. He presented their arguments in form of a dialogue in a personal chat. The discussion is presented here with his permission to compare the arguments of both groups i.e. those who believe in God and the ones who do not.
Friend: Assalam o alaikum
Mubashir: Wa alaikum us salam
Friend: how are you?
Mubashir: Al Hamdulillah, how are you? What about the health of mother? How the things going on? We started a positive dialogue but discontinued it. I want to discuss it in detail with you. What are your views about religion? Please feel free to discuss with me your views because I'm not a conservative person.
Friend: Same here, may I ask a question??
Mubashir: Off course, you can ask 10 questions
Friend: Why did you ask me that? Did all the perception was narrated after my comments?
Mubashir: Actually we have never discussed it openly so let's discuss it openly.
Friend: Is it needed?
Mubashir: It's my request, and off course needed.
Friend: Well in short I am of the view that one should make the religious matters separate from the others, I mean "duniyavi (worldly)".
Mubashir: Explain it.
Friend: It should be subjective but not objective,† it can differs man to man
Mubashir: What's the basis of this view?
Friend: The things of state interests including laws, constitutions should be on priority, if I say something about state issue, just look alcohol is prohibited in Islam but we never think that how much revenue can be generated through it, during sugar formation process a lot of material of cane have been wasted while we can use it to make liquor if it would be allowed.
Mubashir: No doubt revenue can be generated from any activity e.g. alcohol, gambling, prostitution etc., the case is that whether we believe in God or not, if we believe and we are convinced that Quran is His book, then logically there is no other option except to follow His instructions whether they are beneficial or not
Friend: Well, agreed
Mubashir:† Your view is required on my previous argument that: ďThe case is that whether we believe in God or not, if we believe and we are convinced that the Quran is His book, then logically there is no other option except to follow His instructions whether they are beneficial or not.Ē
Friend: Well to my faith is some thing, u trust with close eyes, but the other matter should be handled rationally.
†Mubashir: I agree with this, my faith is not a blind believe, it is based on logic and definitely I believe in dealing all matters rationally.
Friend: And if we read these life patterns we see that how these systems emerged gradually, I hold on anthropological basis, so can you prove His (Godís) existence.†† As for me it was an on going process, from magic through metaphysics to this form of religion.
Mubashir: Existence of God is very logical, existence of this universe is the proof of it and nobody can deny existence of a creation without a creator.
Friend: But for me now the stage is of science based on empiricism.
Mubashir: Regarding anthropology,
Friend: Dear brother, I read a definition of matter in (Class) 7th, "Matter can neither be created, nor it can be destroyed but it can be converted into energy", well evolutionary process is an on going and there are so many agents contributing in its acceleration,†† such as urbanization, industrialization, inventions, discoveries, and what I understand anthropology is much more than Darwin.
Mubashir: Matter is changing its forms but who has developed these laws, anthropological changes are going on but again the question is that who has made the changing factors?
Friend: Don't u think, there is any internal forces, if you ask about the magnet, the south pole has the attraction for the north, is anybody make those.
Mubashir: Even if something internal force like internal force of a magnet or human being, the question is who has made this force, do you think that if I drop ink on paper, it will automatically become a poem of Ghalib? Or if I throw bricks upward and when they come down, it will become automatically a good house?
Friend: Not but its a rule and logical that it would be a blot but if one is expecting or thinking that it will make something else its very illogical, I can say, religion is some thing absolute?? Is it? But logic depends on past experiences, no. of chances, empirically proved things and 5 senses, there is no 6th.
Mubashir: Even if you are not expecting it, will something intelligently designed can be created automatically just be internal forces, empirical knowledge comes from 5 senses but everybody applies a sixth sense which is your inference engine, we get information from our 5 senses that a very intelligently designed universe and my body is available so inference is that it has a Creator.
Friend: Yes, but the mother as the chemical process of making some compound its very obvious.
Mubashir: A compound will be made when someone will mix the elements in required ratio.
Friend: Ok, so how a child produced??
Mubashir:† A child will be produced when someone will perform a required action i.e. sex.
Friend: Injecting some compound (sperm) and it hits ovary, then zygote is produced getting food from mother and become matured under specific and required conditions now just think the matter of sperm, food, etc reshaped in the form of child and when one dies the matter changes its condition when it decomposes, and if there is any tree on that grave, its production level will be higher because of getting some fertilizer in the form of decomposed matter of human.
Mubashir: Definitely, all this process of changing matter tells that there is someone who is putting all that into action, each step of this cycle demonstrate that there is someone who in controlling the process.
Friend: And later we use the production of that tree as we eat and then what do you think about the cloned species.
Mubashir: Someone will do some experiments and then the cloned organism will come into being.
Friend: Ok, so man is doing all these? Formulating the procedures and trying again so he got the prescribed and formulated mechanism and applied it, so this formulation is universal but having specific conditions, and any body can use them but again the relative conditions are essential and nothing behind these formulations, two atoms of hydrogen and 1 of oxygen always make a molecule of water having relative conditions of like temperature
Mubashir: The human being is copying the formulation which is already creation by Someone.
Friend: Ok, Dear Brother, I think its a very long discussion, and leave it to the next sitting, and now I am to go back, but I am happy to discuss.
Mubashir: Ok, just before closing, let's tell what opinion you have developed about existence of God till now, I'm very open to discuss, we are brothers and don't consider me a fanatic person..
(sorry for the written expression b coz it made me smiled), give me hard time
and I ll give you the same, I am still standing
there, where I was before discussion. Just let me know "
Mubashir: Al Hamdulillah.
Regarding coming to
Friend: Regarding marriage, I don't have any plan, but seeking for a good opportunity.
One last thing which I want to tell you that Iím an honest person in my profession and relationships. I do not use liquors, Iím not a corrupt person, never committed adultery, avoid telling a lie as much as possible, the only negative thing is that I do not pray regularly. Rest you know very well, I go to Mother Tresa home in off days to spend time with disabled children. I think that these things give me an internal satisfaction.
Take care about yourself because youíll have to progress a lot. God bless you dear brother.
Mubashir:† Iím very glad to know about your activities. I know very well that you have a positive spirit in yourself. The person who becomes happy and get satisfaction with good deeds e.g. helping poor and becomes dissatisfied with something bad, definitely owns a good mindset. I really like you for it.
You told that some of your colleagues have earned huge sum of money from your field. I guess that they have done the same for which NGOs have the bad reputation. You might have the same opportunities but you have not done the same. It indicates that the positive spirit is very strong in your personality.
You also wrote that the only bad thing in you is that you do not pray. If you consider it bad, it means that you believe in God and want to pray for Him.
Why I started a discussion with you on this subject? The reason is the affection developed between us for a long period of time. I want to convince you on whatever I think the right path and I think similar view will be at your side. The obvious reason is our relationship and affection. Even if you are not convinced, it will not have an impact on our relationship. Iím open to be convinced to truth at any time.
Iím putting a few questions. Iíll really appreciate if you please think about the answers and also inform me your response.
1. Atheists usually present the processes related to creation of human being discovered through the anthropological research as arguments against the existence of God. As you mentioned that chemicals in soil are converted into food by plants, then they become part of human body, then part of sperms & ova, then they become a live human being, then the human being is died and his body is destroyed into soil. Do you think that details of this process really negate the existence of the God? Scientific details of many things have been discovered and in future, many other details will be discovered. These details (if discovered at the level of scientific law) are nothing except providing information on existence of some forces. We see these forces as a part of the creation plan of God. Is there anything which empirically tells that no God exists and entire process is automatic and without a Creator?
2. We discussed that there are internal forces in this universe. It is our common observation that if internal forces are not organized, they simply create a mess. During Hajj, I observed that around 2.5 million people were gathered at one place. Each person had an internal force i.e. his thinking process which was directing him to do something. Since these forces were not harmonized, it simply created a great mess. Some people wanted to move towards East and some towards West which resulted in a disaster as a result of that many people lost their lives. In the universe, we see that trillions (not millions or billions) of forces are active. If there is no external organizer, why the universe does not become a great mess? In absence of an Organizer, how the universe has become so orderly and organized that scientists declare that it is based on an intelligent design?
On this subject, Iíll recommend you to read the books of famous Turkish scholar Harun Yahya. He is a specialist on this subject and his books are available at www.harunyahya.com.
3. How the internal forces of different organisms came into being? Is there any empirical evidence on creation of these forces?
4. We find an
empirical evidence of existence of God in the established history. A few
persons called Apostles claimed in a few selected nations that they are
appointed by the God. These Apostles asked their audience to believe in One
God otherwise they will be destroyed. Most of the nations denied these
Apostles and these people were destroyed. These are not stories told by
religious literature. Archeological evidence supports it. Anybody can see the
archeological sites of the nations of Thamud, Madyan and
5. Holy scriptures i.e. Torah, Gospels and Quran claim that the children of Prophet Abraham (Alaihis Salam) were made a demonstration of Godís reward and punishment in this world. Whenever they committed themselves to the right path, they were rewarded in this world and whenever their religious and ethical character was deteriorated, they were punished in this world. Donít you think that an empirical evidence? You can see the details in my article at www.mubashirnazir.org/ER/L0015-08-Safarnama.htm.† Can you please tell that if no God exists, how this claim became true?
As a brother, I would like to add that a person who believes in God is at no risk. Whether the God exists in reality or not, he/she will not face a problem as a result of believing in God. On the other side, the person who does not believe in God is at great risk. If the God exists, the person who does not believe will be in a serious trouble. Do you think that we should take that risk?
You are requested to please respond to these five questions at your earliest. I intend to publish this discussion on my website. Would you like to publish your views in your name? If you do not want in this way, Iíll publish them anonymously.
Waiting for your response,
PS: I never received the response of such questions from any atheist.
مصنف کی دیگر تحریریں
قرآنی عربی پروگرام† /† سفرنامہ ترکی† /† ††مسلم دنیا اور ذہنی، فکری اور نفسیاتی غلامی† /† اسلام میں جسمانی و ذہنی غلامی کے انسداد کی تاریخ ††/† تعمیر شخصیت پروگرام† /† قرآن †اور بائبل† کے دیس میں† /† علوم الحدیث: ایک تعارف ††/† کتاب الرسالہ: امام شافعی کی اصول فقہ پر پہلی کتاب کا اردو ترجمہ و تلخیص† /† اسلام اور دور حاضر کی تبدیلیاں ††/† ایڈورٹائزنگ کا اخلاقی پہلو سے جائزہ †††/† الحاد جدید کے مغربی اور مسلم معاشروں پر اثرات ††/† اسلام اور نسلی و قومی امتیاز ††/† اپنی شخصیت اور کردار کی تعمیر کیسے کی جائے؟† /† مایوسی کا علاج کیوں کر ممکن ہے؟† /† دور جدید میں دعوت دین کا طریق کار ††/† اسلام کا خطرہ: محض ایک وہم یا حقیقت† ††/† Quranic Concept of Human Life Cycle† /† Empirical Evidence of Godís Accountability